BRET RUDNICK :
[01] He might play the god of war in XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS, but it is going to be hard to reconcile that image after chatting with Kevin Smith for a bit. He is a very nice, charming fellow, and very easy to talk to -- nothing at all like the baddies he has played on stage and screen. His Kiwi charm and good nature are very evident.

KEVIN SMITH:
[02] G'Day, how's it going?

RUDNICK :
[03] Hi, how are you?

SMITH:
[04] Good. Thanks, Bret. Yourself?

Having the Head Scan

RUDNICK:
[05] Very fine, thank you very much. I understand you just got back from "having your head scanned"?

SMITH:
[06] Yes. They did this thing where you sit in a chair and they run this laser around your head to make a geographical [three- dimensional] image. They make little sculpture-type things out of it.

RUDNICK:
[07] This is perhaps for some future product?

SMITH :
[08] Yes, a doll. They have got this thing where they flatten out your head, like they do for a globe, to spread it out to make a two-dimensional image. They did it with my head. It's a terrible thing to witness.

RUDNICK:
[09] (laughs) I can imagine!

SMITH:
[10] They quaintly call it the road kill image. It's an ugly thing. (laughs)

The Popularity of XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS

RUDNICK:
[11] (Explains what WHOOSH! is, how it came about, and where we are today, as well as thanks Kevin Smith for his time)

SMITH:
[12] Cool, man! That's great! It's my pleasure. In New Zealand to some extent you are insulated from the success that the show has worldwide and especially stateside. It is popular back home but obviously nothing like the extent it is up here. It is an eye-opener coming up here and dealing with it, albeit on a short-term level. Yes, it is a major eye-opener!

RUDNICK:
[13] Have you found as you are walking down the street that people recognize you here?

SMITH:
[14] Yes, the odd person. They sort of do a double-take because when I am not beleathered I do not bear much resemblance to Ares, but a couple of people have come up to me. In fact, a guy came up to me on the street the other day -- we had a couple of quakes here about a week ago, quite decent ones, sort of fives -- and this guy comes up and blamed me for it.

RUDNICK:
[15] (laughs)

SMITH:
[16] (in Texan voice) "Ares, you sonofab*****, that was you, wa'n't it?" (laughs)

RUDNICK :
[17] Well, that is understandable! (both laugh)

Getting the Role of Ares

RUDNICK:
[18] What was your first XENA experience? How did you get involved with the show to begin with?

SMITH:
[19] Way back when they were just launching the idea [of HERCULES], the woman who casts the show out of New Zealand called my agent and asked if I would be interested in auditioning for the role of Hercules. But at that time, I did not audition. I was on a TV series back home [in New Zealand]. I declined, regretfully. I was over here [in the United States] about two years ago and had a chance meeting with Eric Gruendemann, who is a producer [of XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS and HERCULES: THE LEGENDARY JOURNEYS]. I am really good friends with Michael Hurst [Iolaus in HERCULES] and we were just having dinner. Soon afterwards I got a call from New Zealand asking "You want to come over and play Iphicles [Hercules' half-brother]?" so I said "Sounds like a good deal to me." So I went back, did Iphicles, did theater for about six months, and then I did my first Ares [episode of XENA]. So, it just came out of a chance meeting, really.

Charles Siebert

RUDNICK:
[20] That's very interesting. I noticed that many of the Ares episodes were directed by Charles Siebert and I was wondering if there was some sort of team thing going on there?

SMITH:
[21] For the first couple of Ares [episodes], Charlie Siebert was down to [direct them]. He is a great guy. He is a really good actor's director.

[22] No, it [that Siebert directed three out of the five Ares episodes] just turned out that way. Fortunately he [Siebert] did another favorite of mine which is TEN LITTLE WARLORDS (#32).

[23] This was back when Lucy [Lawless] was hurt and Ares lost his power. Charles had a wee role in it [Sisyphus]. It just turned out that way. We really kind of meshed. All the directors I have worked with on HERCULES and XENA have been really keen about giving Ares as much latitude as we can, because we like to be a bit naughty with him, you know?

Third Season

RUDNICK :
[24] Ares is a very popular character and it is enjoyable to see him recurring. Do you know if he is going to be back much next season?

SMITH:
[25] Oh, yes! I am flying out tomorrow because I have to return to start filming it. I actually start the day I get back, which is going to be fun. First, I have a HERCULES crossover episode (STRANGER IN A STRANGE WORLD, #H61; HERCULES' 4th season premiere). Xena will be in that one as well, and I am doing four XENA's on the trot [in one visit].

RUDNICK:
[26] That is great!

SMITH:
[27] I have lost count [of the shows I have done]. I have done nigh on twenty shows, so it is a nice little thing to have. I still do a lot of work on New Zealand television back home but because I do blocks of it, not the whole time, it works out really well.

RUDNICK:
[28] So they organize things for you in blocks of time?

SMITH:
[29] Yes, or a one-off, but they have started doing things like trilogies, such as the Golden Hind trilogy, and it is cool, because it is about a month there. You can do the rest of your work around that.

Ares the Character

RUDNICK:
[30] I have noticed in HERCULES that Ares is coming off quite a bit nastier than he has in some of the latest Xena episodes. In TEN LITTLE WARLORDS, for example, he was a very vulnerable sort of character, and I must say the way you played that particular role/episode was absolutely great.

SMITH:
[31] Oh, thanks very much! It was a great show. We always like to push Ares to see how much we can get away with. Charlie [Siebert] says "Let's just make him as weak and as vulnerable as we dare", so it was nice as an actor to be able to have that kind of latitude. But the reason he is nastier in HERCULES, you see, is he has an emotional attachment to Xena. Whereas with Hercules it is just plain out and out that he hates the guy. With Xena, he really wants to win her back.

Ares Relationship with Xena

RUDNICK:
[32] The relationship between Ares and Xena is the subject of quite a bit of discussion among some fans. You have some people who say it is possible that Ares is Xena's father, while you have others saying Ares and Xena have a thing going on with each other. It is quite the subject of speculation in some circles.

SMITH:
[33] It's funny, you know, because even at this end, there has been some...dancing around the issue. In one of the early episodes, TIES THAT BIND (#20), there is a suggestion that Ares is her father. We touched on it a couple of times. That would mean that she would then become a demigod, like Hercules, which would affect, to a certain extent, the texture of the show. Another episode, INTIMATE STRANGER (#31), albeit she was inhabited by Callisto at the time, Ares and Xena had a physical consummation of sorts. So if they go down the road he's her dad you could get into a kinky kind of Ozark situation.

Adapting to Lucy Lawless' Accident

RUDNICK:
[34] I remember a line Hudson Leick had as Xena in TEN LITTLE WARLORDS (#32) when Ares told her about his close encounter with Xena's body. She said that she would have to remember to take a bath when she got her body back.

SMITH:
[35] (laughs)

RUDNICK:
[36] Which also reminds me, was it intended for Hudson Leick to play that part in TEN LITTLE WARLORDS (#32) originally or was Lucy Lawless supposed to play it and could not because of her injury?

SMITH:
[37] Yes, it all happened around the time of the accident [October 8, 1997]. So consequently, we had to re-shoot the end of INTIMATE STRANGER (#31) to accommodate that, because originally at the end of INTIMATE STRANGER, Xena and Callisto switch back and all is fine. We see Callisto being sucked into the very bowels of Hell. But no, we did a quick re- shoot and a bit of a reshuffle. It is amazing when the two women play each other. It is funny watching Hudson doing Lucy doing Xena and then Lucy doing Hudson doing Callisto. It is extraordinary.

RUDNICK:
[38] I did notice in several scenes, especially the way they moved their arms, the way they walked, their gestures and speech, that they seemed to have studied and got each other down very well.

SMITH :
[39] Yes, they really did their homework on that one.

RUDNICK:
[40] Can you tell us anything about when Ares is coming back? Is Callisto involved, etc.?

SMITH:
[41] I have not heard. The next one I am about to do, HERCULES, will be a different kind of Ares, which will be quite fun. But I do not actually know what they will do. They rung me up and said "Are you available for this time", I said "Yeah" and picked the script up a week before. So it is nice. It keeps it fresh for me. I am not jaded by the time I get there.

Interpreting Ares

RUDNICK:
[42] How much of what goes into Ares are you allowed to do on your own, or how much are you minutely directed where they say you must do this or that.

SMITH:
[43] There are certain things that have come to be expected. One of them is the evil villain chuckle at the end of the scene when we go to an ad break (he demonstrates).

[44] In terms of stuff that we do, many of the directors who come on board say "Look, you have done this for a long time, you know the man" in terms of what specific beats.

[45] Obviously we all have ideas on that sort of thing. It is a good collaborative effort. The nice thing is after doing it for a while you know the machinery and you just adjust it to whatever situation Ares is in. We like to have fun with the lines.

RUDNICK :
[46] Where would you personally like to see the character go that has not been done yet?

SMITH:
[47] We were talking about this the other day. Since I am up here I had the occasion to sit in with the writers. Usually they are just names on a script because we shoot half a world away.

[48] It is funny, especially with HERCULES' last episode shown over here, called END OF THE BEGINNING. We were watching it -- Kev [Kevin Sorbo, Hercules] and I -- and the fight at the end was suddenly very interesting because Herc and Ares are sort of an even match in powers and so there was a risk element for Hercules in this fight. Essentially, he's smacking guys all around the place. But there was an actual dramatic tension to it. There were stakes. Something was at stake which made it that much more riveting. So I guess a logical place for it to go would be some sort of definitive conflict where something actually happens out of it. Quite often if there is a battle, you go home, lick your wounds, and come back again next week. I would like to see something that puts Ares in real jeopardy.

THE XENA SCROLLS

RUDNICK:
[49] We have gotten the hint this last season with THE XENA SCROLLS (#34) there is bound to be at some point the ultimate battle between Xena and Ares resulting in his imprisonment.

SMITH:
[50] Yes, that is why he was in the tomb of Hephaestus, I believe. The door is pretty open there. The guy who directed THE XENA SCROLLS, Charlie Haskell, he and I used to be buddies way back fifteen years ago at college. Through totally separate routes, he went to film school and I started acting, but we did not start doing it until our mid-20's. So we just bummed around for years and we ended up working together on this thing. And man, he likes Ares to be a really sick puppy. (laughs) We came up with cool things for him to say. There's a line in THE XENA SCROLLS where he says (falling into perfect Ares mode) "The world thinks it's seen death and destruction now. Wait'll they get a load of me!" Which is straight from the Joker in BATMAN (1989). Another one, we sort of lifted from NAKED GUN (1988) because there is a certain tongue-in-cheek element to Ares. There is a campiness, just part of the nature of the guy. Charlie had this idea where at the end of THE XENA SCROLLS (#34) when Ares gets trapped in there -- have you seen the album cover for BAT OUT OF HELL (1977) by Meatloaf?

RUDNICK:
[51] Yes, I have.

SMITH:
[52] (laughs) He wanted Ares bursting out of the ground on a motorcycle. It was a bit too much though. (laughs) That's the sort of fun we can have with the characters. I do enjoy doing Iphicles, but in terms of fun, just because your brief is so much wider, Ares is a gas to play, man.

RUDNICK:
[53] It's a very powerful part, and many people, myself included, really enjoy it and we are certainly looking forward to seeing more in the coming season.

SMITH:
[54] Oh, thank you!

Early Career

RUDNICK:
[55] Something you mentioned a moment ago, something else I wanted to ask -- your early career. What sorts of things have you done in the past? How did you get started and lead up to what you are doing now?

SMITH:
[56] I stumbled into acting literally by accident. I was a rugby player in New Zealand. I was about 24 and I got pretty badly hurt. I got a concussion for the third time that season. The doctor suggested for future well being I should give the game away. While I was having my three week stand-down period with my head injury I came home one day and my wife said "You've got to turn up at this theater". I said "Whatever for?" She said "I saw an ad in the paper and I put your name in for an audition." I said "What?!" I used to play in rock bands. I was really heavy into the alternative music scene when I was younger.

RUDNICK:
[57] You too, eh?

SMITH:
[58] Oh, yes, we used to tour in a band called Say Yes to Apes. It was kind of early Stooges, MC5 sort of stuff. There was a touring musical called Are You Lonesome Tonight about the final days of Elvis Presley's life. I ended up getting the part, and it was like "D***, this is good." And things just kind of rolled on from there. So I did not start until later on. I was just fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time.

[59] Theater is still the main form of work for actors in New Zealand. I got taken into a company immediately because they needed a new leading man. Again, I just happened to be there. I always meant to find the guy who kicked me in the head in the rugby game and buy him a drink, because had he not chosen to kick me in the head, I would not be sitting here talking to you now. By now, at the age of 34, I would have been a retired average rugby player. (laughs)

RUDNICK:
[60] So have I got my research right if I say that early on you were in a television soap opera in which you also worked with Lucy Lawless?

SMITH:
[61] It was our first prime time soap. It was one hour weekly. They called it the Kiwi Dynasty. It was a thing called GLOSS. It was made just about the time of the crash. It was all about yuppies and the nouveau riche and that. I had just met Lucy. It was just after she had gone back to work after Daisy was born. She was very young. I had just moved up to a midrange/starring role and she was an extra on it. I remember talking to her and she would have only been maybe 20 at the time. She just had a baby and was asking me how I got started, that sort of thing.

[62] I saw her a lot around after that because it is a very small acting community [in New Zealand], you understand. You get to see everyone. She worked a while on this gambling drama called MARLIN BAY (1993-1994) and I came on the series afterward as, quelle surprise, the series bad guy. (laughs) So we ended up working on that together for a few weeks.

DESPERATE REMEDIES

RUDNICK:
[63] Interesting. Also, my boss and publisher, Kym Taborn, wanted me particularly to ask you about DESPERATE REMEDIES (1993, Dir. Stewart Main and Peter Wells). She says many of your fans enjoyed it and she wants to know if we are going to see more of you in the future?

SMITH:
[64] (laughs quite a bit) Mate! Yes, I shot that film in 1992. We went to Cannes with it. It was an art-house sort of picture but the Italians and the French and the Spanish absolutely loved it because it was a vast, operatic sort of piece. The whole thing was done on a set. It was heavily stylized. It was a great experience. We had two directors working on it and it was funny the number of people who do come up and say "Man, I saw that film." It was something that polarized people, they either hated it or they really dug the film. There were vast tracks in it where I was not wearing an outrageous codpiece -- I was stark-lollicky-naked. (laughs) So every now and then I run into someone who reminds me of that. With the New Zealand film industry, obviously the output is not as big as with a bigger market, but we continually put out interesting and challenging pictures.

RUDNICK:
[65] I have noticed at least as far as artistic content the film community really takes notice; they do appreciate a lot of what comes out from down there.

SMITH:
[66] When I came out here [the U.S. in 1995], that was all I had [DESPERATE REMEDIES]. I came out here to do the whole pilot thing and that. I remember taking [the film] to a couple of people, this is not a mainstream movie, to its detriment over here. I gave it to a couple of agents. One handed it back and he says (falling into American accent) "This is a weird picture, kid."

RUDNICK:
[67] (laughs)

SMITH:
[68] (still in character) "I don't like it." (back into regular voice) "OK, fine." (laughs) It did not set the world on fire over here, but they still speak kindly of it back home. It still means something in some parts of the world.

Future Plans

RUDNICK:
[69] Do you have any future plans over here stateside? Things you want to do you have not had a chance to do?

SMITH:
[70] Just by virtue of the fact we do not make that many films in New Zealand. It is quite possible for several years to go past between film roles. Touch wood -- finding wood, here we go -- while I work all the time over there, I am in a fortunate position that I work regularly in television and theater. I am over here this time because we are on a two week hiatus. I had a couple of movie auditions here and that is why I come over, because you guys make a lot of movies and we don't make so many.

Michael Hurst

RUDNICK:
[71] Is it accurate to say that for many people who work, even regularly, in television and motion pictures in New Zealand, that it is by no means a primary means of income?

SMITH:
[72] There are more of us now. It is seen now as a legitimate way to earn a living. Back when I was in high school it was inconceivable that someone would make a living as an actor. Just of late, I guess because of the success of ONCE WERE WARRIORS (1994, Dir. Lee Tomahori) and HEAVENLY CREATURES (1994, Dir. Peter Jackson), the profession has kind of become legitimized in the public's eyes. You still hear people say "So what do you do during the day? What's your real job?" But as the profile of television performers gets higher and higher, people respect it more and more as a profession. On the other side, some think you are a millionaire because you are on television. (laughs) For most of us, it is now a primary form of income. In fact -- I do not know if you know this -- Michael Hurst, he is one of the country's top Shakespearean theatrical directors.

RUDNICK:
[73] Yes, I believe many people over here have come to realize that.

SMITH:
[74] He is very well respected over at home. After that first episode of Iphicles, he directed me in OTHELLO. We finished the HERCULES episode and went straight into rehearsal for OTHELLO. I did that for about two or three months. In fact I did two plays back to back with Michael directing. It is one of those things, no one here stays away from the stage long because it is home.

RUDNICK:
[75] I have seen Michael Hurst as Charon as well as Iolaus, and he is just absolutely terrific in that role. He really takes off with it.

SMITH :
[76] He was in DESPERATE REMEDIES as well. He was the bad guy in it for a change.

RUDNICK:
[77] I know you are probably tired and I appreciate your time.

SMITH:
[78] No worries at all, Bret, this is cool. It is actually quite good to talk about the show over here, because as I said, in New Zealand it is popular, but obviously not to the same degree. It is nice to have an opportunity to talk about it.

The Popularity of XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS, Part 2

RUDNICK:
[79] If I have got my facts straight, XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS has become virtually number one in syndication and that translates to being seen by quite a few people over here. It is extremely popular.

SMITH:
[80] It is on its way to becoming the most watched program in the world. Like BAYWATCH (1989-), which has that distinction at the moment. Apparently in Europe many places are only now starting to show it. It started to show about a year ago in Australia, and in the United Kingdom it is starting to break in. Very soon, going the way it is, it will be the most watched program in the world.

RUDNICK:
[81] It has been pulling numbers here in the 9 percent and up range, but we have seen people writing from Germany and environs where it goes 12, 16 and higher percent.

SMITH:
[82] That's the thing. I was talking to Kevin Sorbo and he said in Germany it is huge. I said "You should do a David Hasselhoff, and record an album." (laughs)

RUDNICK:
[83] We have noticed as well that in Germany they like to change the titles.

SMITH:
[84] Oh, really?

RUDNICK:
[85] Yes, except for the last show or two in the season they have shown, they have changed the titles from the original ones in English. Also they tell us that over there they have some editing restrictions due to violent content and that sort of thing.

SMITH:
[86] Yes, we get a bit of that in New Zealand because we have quite a bit of commercials. Much television is still state run, you see, so you have quite a lot of commercials in the commercial hour. They never go to an ad when the program would normally do it, they will just keep rocking on through, but they will cut out in the middle of some speech. Lucy [Lawless] says she hates watching it in New Zealand because, imperceptibly to most, she says they speed it up a fraction to accommodate the ads. She says "I think I sound like a chipmunk on the New Zealand show."

RUDNICK:
[87] They used to do that here with records on radio stations quite often. Some would turn the speed up when they played songs, and if you heard the same tune on different stations it could be quite obvious.

SMITH:
[88] Oh, man!

RUDNICK:
[89] They do not do that much now, I don't think, perhaps because of CDs and all that, but that used to certainly be the case.

SMITH:
[90] It's an extraordinary thing. Once you have done that, you have control over the artistic content of a program and they sort of butcher it how they like.

Miscellaneous Production Topics

RUDNICK:
[91] I was talking to Michael Levine (a recurring XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS director) the other night, via computer chat, and he mentioned that they could probably make another five or six episodes just on things that were shot for all the episode to date but cut from the final edit. One example was THE QUEST (#37) where eleven minutes or so was cut from the final version of the show.

SMITH:
[92] I know several times where they have gone over, shot extra time, and sometimes they will use that in another episode, with pertinent characters involved. It is efficiency-based -- nothing is really wasted. It was not anticipated to be the smash it has turned out to be, so there is certainly a frugal sense at work there.

RUDNICK:
[93] And you do get a lot more for your money I guess.

SMITH:
[94] Yes, although the New Zealand dollar started to strengthen, so while it was good on one level, it became less attractive on another. It used to be very close to two for one, so you would get double for your money. But it is like 70 US cents to the New Zealand dollar now.

RUDNICK:
[95] Oh, my!

SMITH:
[96] Yes!

RUDNICK:
[97] So that is good for you guys down there, though.

SMITH:
[98] It is, and it is great for the local industry and it keeps many people busy. They have two crews going full time. It is like a postcard advertisement for New Zealand because of the diverse locations readily available in a short distance.

RUDNICK:
[99] I have heard some people say it is almost like the New Zealand Tourist Board has a couple of minutes in each show because of the spectacular scenery we see.

SMITH:
[100] Oh, yes! Especially in the travelling shots where they are on their way to get somewhere. They always walk past some famous beautiful landmark.

RUDNICK:
[101] But it is. It looks absolutely stunning.

SMITH:
[102] We are lucky like that. I grew up on the South Island where you could be swimming in the ocean, get out, and in 40 minutes you could be on skis. Everything is close because...the place is small. (laughs) There is desert, jungle, and it is all really close. That keeps the cost down as well. Quite often some of these things are frighteningly close to each other. You just turn the camera around and "Ah, look, it's a desert!" (laughs)

It's A Fun Day at the Office

RUDNICK:
[103] I do have one other thing I particularly would like to ask. Do you have any memories that stand out of your experience with the show? Moments that were either amusing, or serious or poignant in some way?

SMITH :
[104] Because of the nature of what we do there normally [in the New Zealand acting scene], sort of contemporary urban dramas, the stuff that sticks out is when you first get to do your own fights. It is a buzz. It is like you are a kid again. It's strictly disciplined so no one gets hurt, but it is such a kick. We made YOUNG HERCULES last winter, and the thing at the end is a pole fight, [which consisted of] standing atop these poles twenty feet off the ground, flame all around you, [while] holding a flaming staff. Another one that gets me is the scene in TEN LITTLE WARLORDS (#32) where I get whipped up by the ankles. Here I am, I am hanging there, I have this mace in my hand, I am swinging upside down, and to get a good perspective shot I am hanging from the rafters. I have a camera between my knees, hanging upside down, thrashing and screaming, and I was thinking "If my kids say, 'What do you do for a job, dad', is this any kind of thing for a grownup man to be doing?" (both laugh)

[105] The cameraman, the camera, the focus puller, they are all between my knees, shooting as I hang upside down! It's extraordinary the situations you find yourself in. They say "We need this castle" and overnight we build a castle. Or you are in a cave or something -- for an actor, it's just so much fun. Where else would I get to wear leather pants and wield a rubber sword? (laughs)

RUDNICK:
[106] Well, I guess New York City is one of the only other places you could get away with it.

SMITH:
[107] (laughs) And I get paid for it. But I would do it for love, anyway. (laughs) It's a great opportunity, and for the likes of Michael [Hurst], myself, Lucy [Lawless], it's stuff we would not get to do otherwise. It's hard work, but it's a fun day at the office.

RUDNICK:
[108] Right! Well that's great! And once again, thanks very much for the time you spent.

SMITH:
[109] Nah, please, Bret, no worries at all, mate.

RUDNICK:
[110] I really appreciate it, and I can absolutely assure you Ares is quite popular and we are certainly looking forward to seeing more of him in the months ahead.

SMITH:
[111] That's cool! Thanks very much, matey!

RUDNICK:
[112] Thank *you* very much, indeed.

SMITH:
[113] Cheers.