Part 2
Editing The Show For Different Audiences (126-127)
Hercules and the Lost Kingdom (128-136)
Salmoneus (137-181)
LES CONTEMPTIBLES (182-197)
The XenaVerse and the HercaVerse (198-206)
BLACK WOLF and Working With Renee O'Connor (207-211)
THE GREATER GOOD (212-217)
HERE SHE COMES...MISS AMPHIPOLIS (218-232)
Directing A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE (233-252)
Comic Book Writing (253-257)
The Future (258-277)

Editing the Show for Different Audiences

BRET RUDNICK:
^[126] I'm struck by how much the television shows Xena and Hercules are changed in overseas markets by the way they are cut. I know that in several episodes they get edited where some markets deem the content too violent or sexually suggestive.

ROBERT TREBOR:
^[127] Including New Zealand, which is really strange. The episode I directed [A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE (#H58)] has virtually no violence in it, only one fight with Michael. They cut that fight down and they cut some other things. They cut a part where a girl had a knife at her throat because she was being threatened. I directed that really subtly but they cut out a couple seconds of closeup and they cut some other things and just ruined the rhythm of the sequence. But we have no control over that and it p*ss*s everybody off.

Hercules and the Lost Kingdom

Robert 'Waylan' Trebor, and Renee 'Deianeira' O'Connor,
in Hercules and the Lost Kingdom (Harvey Cokeliss, 1994).

RUDNICK:
^[128] I know in the past you've done comedic roles and you've done very dramatic roles, but Salmoneus just seems to fit you so close, like a glove.

TREBOR:
^[129] [laughs]

RUDNICK:
^[130] You just do that character so effortlessly and it comes across so wonderfully. Was that part custom-written for you?

TREBOR:
^[131] It was, yes, Salmoneus was written for me. I first played a character called Waylan in Hercules And The Lost Kingdom (Harley Cokeliss, 1994 TV). That was the part I auditioned for. That's another Hollywood story.

^[132] They initially wanted a British/John Gielgud type for that part. They wanted the butler from Arthur. Then the writers said "No, let's have a fat black comedian type." Then they thought it would be an Italian. The casting director knew my work from New York and said "Come on in, there's a chance that your comic energy can work here." There was no continuous scene for that character. There was a line on page 12, a line on page 16, that sort of thing. So I improvised for Rob Tapert. The director was already in New Zealand doing location work.

^[133] I just improvised for Rob what I thought this character would be, a kind of Eric Idle/Zero Mostel thing. Total improvisation. It was taped and sent down to New Zealand, and I got a call saying "They want you." So I had a fair amount of input on Waylan. There was a concern that while they wanted him to appear fussy, they didn't want him to appear gay. I said "That's fine, I see him as a perfectionist and fussy without being gay."

^[134] I seized on the assumption that this guy loves the work and cannot get fired, because as a slave you can't get fired. So I was looking totally at the positive nature of that. Even though Renee's [O'Connor] character, Deianeira, kept saying "Come on, be a man, you worm!" I as Waylan would think "Don't tell me what to do, I know what I'm good at, and this is what I'm good at!"

Hercules, Deianeira, and Waylan.

^[135] I admired the Hercules character and the producers and such liked me as Waylan. At that time we didn't know there was going to be a series. So I said "Look, I'd like to work with you again, I really like the creative latitude you gave me." The show was picked up and I kept hoping they'd write Waylan in again but they never did. So I thought "Oh, well, I guess they forgot about me or something."

^[136] Then I got a call from David Eick saying "We've written this new character Salmoneus for you. See if you want to do it. He's only in two episodes right now." So I did those episodes and then another one, and another, and the show was picked up for second season and I was in several of those. The popularity for the character caught on. But it was tailored for me, yes.

Salmoneus

RUDNICK:
^[137] You've had input to it since then?

TREBOR:
^[138] Yes. John Schulian originally wrote the character, but he originally wrote it a little two-dimensionally, as a strict comic sidekick. They knew I could do other stuff besides being a comic sidekick. They had seen 52 Pickup which in part got me the job. The villain's name in 52 Pickup is named Raimi, and Rob said it was because Elmore knew Sam Raimi of the Raimi family and he did that as an homage to them. So more and more I encouraged the directors and Rob to say "Give me a chance to give a better performance." My whole thing about acting is that nobody tries to be a comic sidekick. People try to achieve something. Most people want to live comfortably, and fall in love.

RUDNICK:
^[139] What more could you ask for?

TREBOR:
^[140] [laughs] Exactly! The comedy comes out of the frustration of trying to achieve those goals. As it does in real life.

RUDNICK:
^[141] Sure, because not everybody looks like Kevin Sorbo or Michael Hurst.

TREBOR:
^[142] You go over to a beautiful woman and try to flirt with her and she walks away. Or you join what you think is a great investment scheme and you lose your shirt. But the energy is not to lose your shirt. The energy is not to be rejected. The energy is "I want this, and I will try to do what I can do as a human being to try to achieve this." The comedy comes out of the obstacles that get in the way. So more and more they gave me that. The flirtations with Atalanta, having five or six women bathe me in a hot-tub as in THE FIRE DOWN BELOW (#H22) -- I'm still waiting for another scene like that.

RUDNICK:
^[143] [laughs]

'Those boots... that leather... those legs... Xena!'
THE BLACK WOLF (11/111)

TREBOR:
^[144] The flirtations with Xena, I would add little things here and there. The line as written in THE BLACK WOLF (#11) when in jail was "Those boots... that leather... Xena!"

RUDNICK:
^[145] Yes!

TREBOR:
^[146] My eye line was right at her thighs. So I just blurted out "Those boots... that leather... those legs... Xena!" And they kept it. I originally thought for a second to use "thighs" instead of "legs" but knew that wouldn't work. But that's part of the Salmoneus thing. I wanted to make him human. It's more fun for me to play a rounder character. I know it will work better. But writers watch the character and there's a nice symbiotic feedback between us. I'm paid for the laughs. If I stop getting laughs they're not going to use me. I know that my essential service to the show is as a comic guy. But the more human behaviour and the more the roundness of emotional texture, the better.

^[147] I love opportunities like in THE GREATER GOOD (#21) where I see Xena and think she's really dead and react to that. I could drop all the comedy and look into her eyes. That was Lucy's [Lawless] last show of that season. She was pretty tired so they let her rest. I was looking down at her in that scene, and Lucy is fabulous, she's fabulous to work with. As an actor you have to be careful with working up tears, because people do not try to cry. They try not to cry. I just looked at her and she was in my arms and we arranged things for the camera shots so it looked good, although there was a certain amount of physical discomfort.

^[148] Right before the camera started rolling for the second take I said "Lucy, would you just look at me for a moment?" We just looked into each other's eyes. Her eyes had to be closed during the take. We looked and I said "Thank you." She just closed her eyes and just looking into her eyes brought up all that emotion.

^[149] I love that moment, giving her the funeral and really thinking that she's dead. This is another case where the original dialogue was different. The original lines were "This is a joke, right? This is a joke." Then I shake her. All I say in the original script was "Well, I guess not." I asked Steve about that. I called her "Proud Warrioress" in THE GAUNTLET (#H12). It was done humorously there, as I was trying to get her attention saying "Oh, Proud Warrioress!"

^[150] I said "Can I say that again here?" He said "Do it." So I added the line "I will miss you," as opposed to the "I guess not" line. So they're very open to input, and Steve and I became fast friends after that. I hope for more stuff like that, on Xena and Hercules as well.

^[151] We had a lovely moment, Kevin and I in CENTAUR MENTOR JOURNEY (#H36) where he's really p*ss*d off because his teacher, his mentor, is dying. He snaps at me. He says "What are you doing around here, why are you always bothering me!" I walk away for a moment and Hercules says "I'm sorry." And Salmoneus says "I don't know what you're going through because I never knew my parents." This is the first time we find out that Salmoneus may have been an orphan or something. I continued, "I know he was like a father to you and if there's anything I can do..." It wasn't sappy, it was just us looking at each other and talking. John Mahaffie, our DP [Director of Photography], came over after that scene and said "That was a fabulous scene. You guys were really moving." So in the final cut, naturally, snip, out. It was a shame, but we're circumscribed by 43 minutes or something. It's a shame these little scenes have to fall by the wayside sometimes.

Salmoneus in a touching moment, as he breaks the news of Xena's 'death' to Gabrielle
in THE GREATER GOOD (21/121).

RUDNICK:
^[152] I was talking to Rob Field, one of the two Xena editors, and we were doing an episode by episode breakdown of his work and he was telling me about some wonderful stuff that was cut out of GREATER GOOD (#21) that had to be lost because of time. It's not that it wasn't good stuff, but you've only got so many minutes.

TREBOR:
^[153] It can be a very tough choice. Do you keep in emotional texture or do you keep the plot moving. If we lose plot points the audience will go "Hey, that was nice, but where are we?"

^[154] In 52 Pickup, which is a feature without theoretical time limits, I had some great stuff that was cut. John Frankenheimer would ask me in to see the dailies, which is normally not done, and he'd pat me on the back and say "I am so glad I cast you in this, this is just wonderful stuff." But it was cut because in the final mix, it just wasn't moving the action forward. So all these great, sensitive acting moments -- out. That's show biz, that's the way it goes.

RUDNICK:
^[155] I was curious about another episode too, THE GAUNTLET (#H12), which his the first time we see Salmoneus and Xena together.

TREBOR:
^[156] That's where I meet Xena.

RUDNICK:
^[157] Salmoneus is absolutely fabulous in this episode.

TREBOR:
^[158] I look a little dumpy in the dress. [both laugh] They kind of had to throw that on me at the last moment.

RUDNICK:
^[159] Was that "theme song" that you sang written or did you ad-lib that?

TREBOR:
^[160] Not only was it ad-libbed, but it was done literally at the last moment. As I mentioned, usually for time and for money purposes, you clear stuff ahead of time. It's cheaper that way. It was the last shot of the day and we were being pressed. I saw the walnuts, and it just occurred to me -- in fact, this is a real inside scoop for Whoosh!

^[161] I really do try to take my mentor's [Milton Katselas] advice, "Don't think about it too much just go with your instinct and impulse, don't try to steer it." I didn't realise this at first, but my initial attempt was a little too close to Robin Hood. The first AD [Assistant Director] pointed this out. I didn't know I was doing this and the clock was running. He said, "Bob, come here for a second please. Isn't this a little close to the Robin Hood theme song?" They're very touchy about that. This is a sidebar/tangent -- did you see the Hercules episode LES CONTEMPTIBLES (#H54)?

RUDNICK:
^[162] Absolutely!

TREBOR:
^[163] At one point at the end of that I'm doing something to the tune of "Alouette". The same AD said, and he's dead serious, "Bob, is that copyrighted?"

RUDNICK:
^[164] [laughs uproariously, having spent his first years of life in France and having learnt French before he learnt English]

TREBOR:
^[165] He was serious like a stroke. He said "I don't want you to sing that. We're not going to get into trouble and having to pay for it." It's like "Mary Had a Little Lamb"! I said "It's hundreds of years old!" He said "I don't know that. I need some proof." I go "George! It's A-B-C-D-E-F-G! It's 'Twinkle Twinkle Little Star'!" Fortunately there was a French woman on the set who verified that is was public domain. So I could keep it in.

^[166] Now I love George, I love George dearly, he's the first AD I ever worked with on these shows. But he also is they guy who said about the Xena theme "Change the tune, Rob, that's Robin Hood." So I had to change it, even though it was only three or four bars, but I did come up with that at the last moment. I was actually subconsciously aware it was an homage to Monty Python's Holy Grail coconuts, that "click click" with the walnuts. But that whole bit was totally improvised and totally spontaneous at the moment we were shooting it.

RUDNICK:
^[167] I also got the impression, having seen that scene a couple of times, was it all Lucy Lawless could do to keep a straight face?

TREBOR:
^[168] She had a hard time. Also with the "titular" thing, my line "Your titular -- um, um, how would you like to be called?" The "undressed address" was the writer's line, the "what is your titular" was my little addition as well. She was great though. Maybe the pressure of the clock ticking added to the comedic energy.

RUDNICK:
^[169] In the episode that follows that, UNCHAINED HEART (#H13), Xena saves Salmoneus.

Salmoneus x-posed
in THE GAUNTLET (H12/112).

TREBOR:
^[170] Xena has already saved Salmoneus in THE GAUNTLET (#H12) by not killing him. She's killed most of the men in town, and when my wig is pulled off she could have killed me then. But since she found me amusing she decided not to. She's also the one that severs the chain that's going to get me killed by Graegus. So she, Hercules, and Iolaus all help save Salmoneus. I got to help Iolaus out also, which gave me a little fighting moment at the end of UNCHAINED HEART (#H12) as well.

^[171] But there again is another moment where I had a chance in the cave-in where all four characters, Xena, Hercules, Iolaus and Salmoneus are trapped. The other three are actively trying to get out of it. My character, initially as written, would not help. They gave me the lines and I really argued. I think the writers may have been angry with me but the producers and director agreed with me. I was originally supposed to say "What's the point, what's the point, we're all going to just die anyway." [sighs] I said "You know, that's TV writing. That's what people say in TV shows. I just don't believe a person would say that under any circumstances. They might believe it, but they wouldn't say it." So we tried coming up with other lines, and I suggested "For the first time in the series, why don't I just shut up? Why don't I just say nothing, which will be scarier?"

^[172] Everybody sees Salmoneus as being gregarious and chatty. So that's the way we decided to play it, and I felt it worked like gangbusters. They showed these medium and tight close-ups of me just rocking back and forth as I sat and held my knees, looking shell-shocked, the way that character might be if he really thinks he's going to die. That brought up what I thought was one of the first touching moments where you see another side of Salmoneus, and he's not just a gag guy. Lucy commented that it helped everybody in the scene, because they're trying to get out but there's this guy who's usually talkative who's just silent. I have a fairly good instinct for that kind of thing, I think. I think it's also serves the director, taking basically very good material and just adding another layer of what I consider genuine behaviour, or genuine reality and trying to get away from television cliches. I watch as much television as anybody, but the trap is you start acting or working like a television character would as opposed to a real person given those circumstances.

RUDNICK:
^[173] I understand. You want to convey something without necessarily having to clobber the audience with it or "tell" them so directly. You need a third party to sort of be separate from it, to see what's going on or what may or may not work.

TREBOR:
^[174] That's right. And I don't get everything I want, by any means. Sometimes I'm just wrong! So I have Eric Grundemann and the director and Kevin and Lucy to say "No, that's not a good idea." I'll say "OK, I just feel it's my job to bring it up." These comments are based on my experience, and if I'm wrong I'm wrong and I won't do it.

RUDNICK:
^[175] It has also been great as time has gone by to see the character of Salmoneus evolve, and every time you see him there's just a little something extra that you pick up on that is different. You also wonder things like "He's a really good guy if he's got the proper supervision, but when he's left alone too long --"

TREBOR:
^[176] [laughs quite a lot]

RUDNICK:
^[177] He drifts a little bit.

TREBOR:
^[178] [big smile in voice] Yes, I can see where you could say that. When I appear at conventions I like to say to the audience, "Let me ask you a question before you ask me a question. How many of you really think that Salmoneus is a con man, raise your hands. Now how many of you think Salmoneus is necessary to move society forward in small increments, through his inventions." Sometimes people vote twice.

^[179] As an actor, looking at the shows I think "Yeah, yeah, the guy is playing fast and loose with the fine print." But I never saw him and still don't see him primarily as a con man. He's an enthusiastic guy who wants to make enough money to live comfortably. And he genuinely wants to help people. He's just not too careful with the fine print. He doesn't look into the warranty too carefully.

^[180] I, as Salmoneus, am not really trying to con people. That's been a small difference between me and the writers sometimes. Jocularly. They do see him and have seen him more as a con man. But as an actor, that's not useful for me to play. Because even if I did think he was -- and there are some real con men in this world, sometimes people really try to hurt others in that way, like selling fake vitamins over the phone or promoting pyramid schemes -- even they can somehow justify to themselves "Well, it might help this person." They still have got to convince themselves they're doing something good. So I can never think of Salmoneus as essentially a con man.

^[181] But objectively, I can stand back and Bob Trebor can say "Yeah, if I could talk to Salmoneus, I'd tell him, Guy, look, read the fine print a little closer. You don't have to play it so fast and loose here and there." That's from my morality. But I really have to put that aside when I'm playing the character.

LES CONTEMPTIBLES

But which one is *really* The Chartreuse Fox?
LES CONTEMPTIBLES (H54/317)

RUDNICK:
^[182] It was also great to see you -- you weren't exactly Salmoneus but you were a character who was very Salmoneus-like in LES CONTEMPTIBLES (#H54). That was really a fun episode.

TREBOR:
^[183] Thank you! I really liked that a lot. The hardest part was we shot that in the summer.

RUDNICK:
^[184] With all that heavy clothing?

TREBOR:
^[185] Yes, yes. Extremely, extremely. Between scenes they had to bring the fans out. The studios weren't originally studios, they were old warehouses. Danielle and I especially had the heaviest wigs and costumes and layers. That was one of the most physically difficult shows because of that, but we had a blast. We had tremendous fun doing that.

RUDNICK:
^[186] I recently had the good fortune to interview Danielle Cormack and she echoed the same sentiment. She said she just had a great time from beginning to end.

TREBOR:
^[187] Did she mention the costume thing also?

RUDNICK:
^[188] No, she did not. That she did not mention.

TREBOR:
^[189] She's a good kiwi soldier. [both laugh]

RUDNICK:
^[190] From some of the stories I hear, you can tell those people to do anything and they'll do it.

TREBOR:
^[191] [laughs] That's right. Off they go. She's great. I hope you get a chance to see her movie.

RUDNICK:
^[192] Topless Women Talk About Their Lives (Harry Sinclair, 1997).

TREBOR:
^[193] That was actually a serial that nobody watched.

RUDNICK:
^[194] Yes, a series of shorts that [New Zealand] TV3 picked up. She also said it was done initially for free as a "between projects" thing.

TREBOR:
^[195] That's the amazing thing about acting, you never know where something is going to lead.

RUDNICK:
^[196] She just happened to be in the right place at the right time with it. You never know.

Michael Hurst, Danielle Cormack, Kevin Sorbo in the background, Robert Trebor, right, in foreground.

TREBOR:
^[197] That's right. She was a pleasure to work with, and a good kiwi soldier. I could tell she was uncomfortable in the heat but she wouldn't say anything about it. I kept asking for chairs and fans. But we had a blast with that.

The XenaVerse and the HercaVerse

RUDNICK:
^[198] You are one of the few people who have had direct experience on the set of Hercules and also on the set of Xena. I have heard people say -- even though it's the same place and same overall company, some people have said there is a different look and feel to the two sets. Has that been your experience?

TREBOR:
^[199] Well, not that much, actually. Many of the former Hercules crew who worked on the show in the beginning now work on Xena so I know them. You can't work on both shows simultaneously. Virtually everyone I've worked with crew-wise on Xena I've worked with formerly on Hercules.

^[200] Lucy [Lawless] and Kevin [Sorbo] just cut up differently. Kevin is just the kind of guy who likes to go out and have a beer with you quietly. He's subtler. Lucy will just cut loose sometimes. Or she'll make sly remarks between takes. Perhaps that's because Xena is a more stern character than Hercules. She has to bottle up her comic energy sometimes so much that in between takes she'll just cut loose.

RUDNICK:
^[201] I was going to say, unless it's a comedic episode, she has to stand around and frown a lot.

TREBOR:
^[202] Right! And Kevin doesn't! Kevin lets out his good nature in a more continuous way throughout the day. Whereas Lucy, when she's acting, usually can't be seen winking at anything. Have you talked with Lucy?

RUDNICK:
^[203] I have not yet, no.

TREBOR:
^[204] She's much more like Rizzo in Grease than she is Xena. She's just the nicest, most casual, friendly kind of person. She's a nice, adventurous kid who did gold mining work in Australia, traveled the world, lived in Israel on a kibbutz for awhile.

^[205] Donnie [Duncan] is the DP [Directory of Photography] for Xena and John is the DP for Hercules and they're both excellent, excellent guys. They really want to make you look good. The director will be concerned about something and the DP will say "Bob, just a little bit more this way, we want to see this particular thing." And I'll say "OK, you got it!" If I don't do something or the camera doesn't pick it up, the audience won't see it. Sometimes they'll do stuff the director won't notice. They're excellent, excellent guys that way. The crews are both really professional and make you feel really good.

^[206] I did two episodes with Lucy on Hercules, and now three episodes with Lucy on Xena. I don't think it's that different. There is a competitiveness thing. When I was down there Hercules was inching out Xena in the ratings by a ratings point and now for the past few months Xena has been inching out Hercules in the ratings. So there's a certain Blue Team/Red Team thing going. But it's a good-natured rivalry. Aside from that, though, I can't notice a difference.

BLACK WOLF and Working with Renee O'Connor

Gabrielle can't decide whether or not to slug Salmoneus as he tells her about his 'Wolf Pack' (tm).
THE BLACK WOLF (11/111)

RUDNICK:
^[207] In talking about some of your appearances on the Xena side, I am looking at the text here regarding THE BLACK WOLF (#11). There is a scene in there that makes me smile and laugh every time I think about it, and that is where Salmoneus is talking with Gabrielle and he is saying "And this is my Wolf Pack. Get it? Wolf...Pack."

TREBOR:
^[208] [laughs]

RUDNICK:
^[209] Renee O'Connor gets this cutest look on her face where it seems she's torn between the urge to slug you or to laugh.

TREBOR:
^[210] Renee and I have a professional relationship that goes back to The Lost Kingdom. So we know each other. We like each other so much. Renee is terrific, and I'm so glad she's found a boyfriend down there. She is just a terrific kid. She's a wonderful actress. I feel a "little sister" thing with her. I never felt that with Lucy, ever. Renee is so jocular and so bubbly. It was great fun doing that episode.

^[211] The director of that episode was an older Italian gentleman, a lovely guy, but he had a very thick accent. But when he got frustrated, because of the time -- the time frustrates everybody down there. I've directed an episode, so I know first-hand. The clock is always pointing a gun at your head. Literally. Everybody is genial but man, if you do not make your day, meaning finishing all the scenes that were scheduled for you to shoot, you are not gonna work! We have a delivery date and the audience want to see new episodes. This is action, hard and fast. You don't get more time. And when this guy felt pressed, he'd talk with a thicker and thicker accent, and it was really hard to understand what he wanted. So we all got together. We said "We don't want to hurt Mario, we want to help him out," but we had to band together and do an ESP thing to kind of psychically imagine what he wanted. So some of that comes into the acting as well.

THE GREATER GOOD

Salmoneus tries not to laugh as he inspects Gabrielle's 'Xena' in
THE GREATER GOOD (21/121).

RUDNICK:
^[212] Now we get to THE GREATER GOOD (#21), which is a "top ten" favorite for me in the series.

TREBOR:
^[213] It's my favourite Xena episode that I've done, although I love THE BLACK WOLF (#11).

RUDNICK:
^[214] It's got some excellent comedy in it, but it also has some really fine drama in it as well.

TREBOR:
^[215] I wish the chicken soup/breast dagger thing had been left in, but it's on the outtake reel now so that's OK. I reached for her breast dagger on her body and Xena says "It's over on the table." I say "Perhaps a change of name for that particular weapon might be a good idea, don't you think?" And there was also the bit with Salmoneus and chicken soup.

RUDNICK:
^[216] I've heard about that. I noticed in Rob Field's trailer he has a can of Salmoneus' chicken soup on his table.

TREBOR:
^[217] I'm giving those out to fans as well. My fan club has a bunch of those labels. You can put the label on your soup can and have a portion of Salmoneus' famous chicken soup of your very own.

HERE SHE COMES...MISS AMPHIPOLIS

RUDNICK:
^[218] That leads to the last appearance that you had on Xena which was HERE SHE COMES...MISS AMPHIPOLIS (#35) which was an absolute riot.

TREBOR:
^[219] Yes, yes. Chris Manheim is a great writer on the show and I hope she writes me into more next season. I know there was a rumour that I'm not going to be appearing in any more Xenas but I have not been told that. I have been told they like my character and they have not guaranteed me any more episodes but I understand they are looking for a show they can put me in because the fans like Salmoneus so much.

^[220] There was talk at some point of Joxer and Salmoneus meeting, but I don't know if that's going to happen. That would be a very dynamic show. But yes, in that episode I did a bit of singing. That was difficult because the composer is in Michigan and I'm in New Zealand. So what he did was he sent me a guide piano track that we played and I went into a studio and sang to it, in an Auckland studio.

RUDNICK:
^[221] This was ADR'ed [Automated Dialogue Replacement -- Sometimes dialogue on the original soundtrack is garbled (e.g., plane flies overhead) and needs to be re-done. Actors come to a studio to do this], or something?

TREBOR:
^[222] Yes. Before we ever started shooting. Then on the day we did the shooting they played both the guide track and my voice to me as I'm doing it and I kind of lip-sync to myself. Then that went back to Michigan and they did a full orchestration to it. Then it went back to ADR in Los Angeles in post production where I did a polish to my voice.

^[223] So this is five passes back and forth. I asked them if it wouldn't be best for me to be in the same room with the musicians, and they said, "Yes, Bob, if this was a film and we could afford it, but it's not and we can't." [laughs] We did the best we could under the circumstances. I would have liked to fix an intonation here or there, but it seemed to turn out well and people seemed to like it.

RUDNICK:
^[224] There seems to be a trend now in Xena episodes where they're either very comedic or very dramatic and we don't get a lot of in-between any more.

TREBOR:
^[225] It's kind of nice to have that, though. MISS AMPHIPOLIS was obviously one of the comedic ones, but it's nice to be able to blend the two elements together.

Salmoneus tries to explain his way out of yet another difficulty.
THE GREATER GOOD (21/221)

RUDNICK:
^[226] That's why I liked THE GREATER GOOD (#21) so much, because we did get both elements in large doses.

TREBOR:
^[227] I know among Xena fans it's a hugely popular episode, and I think it did well in the ratings. Maybe a larger group of people is confused by that but I don't think so.

RUDNICK:
^[228] Who knows why sometimes production people sometimes make the decisions that they do. Sometimes you ask yourself "Are they watching the same program?"

TREBOR:
^[229] It's hard. Television, as opposed to films, is a paper-eating monster. It devours material. You need 22 to 24 new episodes a season.

RUDNICK:
^[230] And how many different stories are there, really?

TREBOR:
^[231] Yeah! But even aside from stories, and there are only something like seven or eight really unique basic stories or themes, right? It is hard, and I feel for the writers who are constantly challenged. [tongue-in-cheek] I wish I could get some more work. I'd like to appear more on both shows, actually. [more seriously] It's difficult, and I sympathise with them a lot.

^[232] But also it's good to have decent actors who really pour the last ounce of creativity out of their brains to get the next thing out in preparation for the one after that. You constantly ask "Does this work?" And Eric Grundemann is so fabulous at this in New Zealand saying "OK, let's take a look at this. Do we need to rewrite this moment here? Is this something put in because they didn't know what else to do?" We as actors who have to make it work can look at it a little more freshly and we can change it a little or add that extra bit of polish to make it work better.

Directing A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE

RUDNICK:
^[233] As far as acting is concerned, you've had some experience on the other side of the camera when you directed A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE (#H58). I'm interested to hear your experience along that line.

TREBOR:
^[234] It was terrific. While I was doing it people were asking "Are you having fun, are you having fun?" I thought to myself "Hmm, this is a show about a guy who is slowly dying under the pressure of this big rock and who knows he'll die instantly if the rock is removed. There are no pretty babes. There are no comic moments. There's no lightness at all in this. 'Fun' is not the word I would use at the moment."

RUDNICK:
^[235] [laughs]

TREBOR:
^[236] I'm certainly occupied and enthralled and riveted, by what I was doing. In retrospect, looking back on it, it was a fabulous experience and I look forward to directing another one. But at the moment, given that material since I'm essentially an actor first, I as an actor have to absorb that. I told the crew, and I tried to be as unpretentious as possible, "This is a show in which we face the last thirty minutes of our life." And we're all gonna have to face that. Hopefully when we're old and we want to go. But I live in Los Angeles, where a "rock" or some other object could fall down on my chest at any time if the earth chooses to move. So I live, in a general sense, with this thought.

^[237] When Dierdre [Mr. Trebor's significant other] and I moved out here we said "Y'know, let's take a look at those fault lines." We wanted to find a place that was relatively secure. Ironically, to backtrack here to 1994 when I was doing LOST KINGDOM, the second week I was down there was the Los Angeles earthquake. I was seven thousand miles away from my honey and my home. She called me at three in the morning and said "You're going to hear about this soon, but I'm OK and our place is OK. There has been a huge earthquake." I kept asking if she was sure everything was OK. She said yes, yes, there was a blackout but she had enough food and water. I told her I really wanted to be with her then. But this sort of thing could happen at any time. It could happen while we're talking.

^[238] So I really have to absorb that as a director and sell it, in a sense, to both my actors and my crew. And they were very respectful. The kiwis are great, and they're very dedicated, but sometimes they cut up, as any crew might. But I had to say "Guys, please, I don't want to sound like a schoolteacher, but I need quiet. Especially the scenes between Kevin and Lindsey Ginter (co-star in the episode) under the rock, the concentration has to be there when they're facing death. Please recognise that." I said this within the first two minutes of my first day of shooting.

^[239] They were all very respectful and very considerate of that. I read up a lot on directing and how other directors did things. Mike Nichols at one end and Otto Preminger on the other. I prefer Mike's approach, creating the best atmosphere in which every player can do his best job. Being genuinely encouraging and creative. Having your own idea of how the ship should be steered. Directing is not a democracy and I'm not taking a poll as we go along to decide how to shoot a scene. But once you've set it up and once you've set up the staging, how you want the lens, what perspective, what temperature the acting should be, then encouraging everybody to give their best. And you do all this within a very short period of time. You only have two or three takes. And that was the hardest thing.

^[240] I set up my shot list and tried to make it as modest as possible. They said "Don't go over 21 setups, you're not gonna make it." I tried to learn from the mistakes of others and I looked at other directors' shot lists. I knew for almost two years I was going to be directing an episode and I studied other directors to learn more about what to do and not to do. I ended up with 20 setups.

^[241] My first day of shooting we had to shoot at three different heights. The lighting took much more time than I thought. That was so frustrating. I love John [Mahaffie], and John makes me look so good, as the DP. I said "John, I'm ready." He said "Bob, I'm not. Please, I'll let you know when we're finished." He's responsible for the look of the show and the show looks so incredibly good and that makes me look good. But that was so frustrating, because I was thinking "I'm going to have to lose shots, please can we start shooting?" He said "No, I'll tell you when." I actually did lose three things that day. And it's my job to make up for them the next day.

^[242] At one point I decided I wanted three crane shots in there. Because of the visual dynamics of the show -- the guy is under a rock -- I felt it best to have those crane shots. That meant having to lose two or three setups. So I'm bargaining with myself, and the AD and the DP as to how to make this work.

^[243] Then there are things that no one can control, like the weather. We had a period where we couldn't shoot for 45 minutes. I had a five-shot setup where Hercules comes out and tells the crowd "Look, this is not a time to be rejoicing, go home." I made it a one-er. I said "We're gonna drop the tracking, we're gonna drop the dollies, we're gonna make this all steady-cam." And it worked.

RUDNICK:
^[244] I was going to say, that actually turned out to be very effective.

TREBOR:
^[245] Thank you. It's just trying to think creatively and always checking with my DP saying "Is this possible, is this going to work?" The director's job is to get the best out of everybody and encourage everyone to work together as a team.

RUDNICK:
^[246] To be honest with you, doing it the way you described, I think it turned out to have a much more dramatic kind of feel to it than it might have with just a preset, stationary deal.

TREBOR:
^[247] It might have. You're absolutely right. It's making a virtue of necessity. My instinct was at that moment to slow it down a little bit. But it turned out fine. I also directed the extras, I think they did a wonderful job in those little "link" sequences. They're tossing each other up in the air, and drinking and toasting. I had to shoot all of that as we were losing light, in the last three hours of the last day of shooting. I had to have enough variety in it and I had to direct the "loop group".

^[248] Most directors don't direct the looping as specifically as I did because usually it's just generalised information. But I needed a specific line here or line there, so I wanted to be in the room with them. As a director you don't get paid extra for that at all. So that was a totally un-Salmoneus-like thing I did only to make the show better. I kept my vision of the script as close to the final filmed product as possible.

RUDNICK:
^[249] Did you worry going into it that people might not take you seriously as a director? Were you concerned they might think of you as "just" an actor?

TREBOR:
^[250] Everyone on the crew liked me and respected me, I think. Well, they respect me anyway, and I like to think they like me. We talked about the director/actor thing. They know I had a director's view about the whole project. I'm never just concerned with myself. I want to do anything I can do to make the show good. At one point in UNCHAINED HEART (#H13) I had a gag line that I gave to Lucy because it worked better for her at that point. At one point in that film Salmoneus was flirting -- or attempting to flirt -- with Xena and I was saying nice things about her. Xena asks something like "Is this a new scam, what's next?" I say "How about love slave?" She says "How about deluded?" I gave her that "deluded" line because it worked better for her. I'm concerned about how I look, of course, but I really want to make the best d*mn show I can possibly make, whether it's TV or film.

^[251] It is not because I'm some saint or good guy, it's because I have to look at myself in the mirror. If I ever catch myself watching a performance, I don't want to have to wince. I want to make these shows as good as possible for very selfish reasons. I never want to have to say -- it's called in French "esprit d'escalier" -- what I should have said as I'm walking down the stairs. So far on these shows I haven't. On other shows I have. It's harder to be a one-shot guest star, because you're coming in as an unknown quantity and you do your job and you leave. If you have a relationship with the producers and the writers and they respect you, then you do have a little more creative input.

^[252] As a director, I had to prove myself the first day and then move on. Eric was concerned I might be too much of a perfectionist. He was worried I might take five or six or seven takes of something to get it exactly right. Once I proved to myself I could give direction and get something in the ball park of what I wanted I was able to say "OK, that's done, let's move on." That was established the first day and after that I was fine.

Comic Book Writing

A panel from THE THEFT OF THE YOUNG LOVELIES (Xena Comics, no. 1, 1997),
produced by Topps.

RUDNICK:
^[253] Besides directing you're branching off into writing too! TREBOR:
^[254] For the comic books, anyway. They're not really willing to take ideas from cast members because they have their own writing staff. But the Topps people actually commissioned me, they asked me if I would like to write a storyline for them for the upcoming Xena series. And I said "Yeah, I'd love to!" So I noodled around some ideas. I came up with the title The Theft Of The Young Lovelies.

RUDNICK:
^[255] That sounds very Salmoneus-like.

TREBOR:
^[256] You can imagine what that involves. It was originally supposed to be a two-part storyline but they liked it so much they made it three parts. So I write a five page outline of where the story should go, and they send that to the artist, Amanda Connor, who is fabulous! I saw her pencil drawings.

^[257] I think the audience will love it. It's a better Xena than the one that appeared in the Hercules comic book version. Gabrielle looks wonderful. It is not just generic features, they really capture more of Lucy and Renee's qualities. She [Amanda Connor] reads the story and sends me back artwork based on my story points, then I show where the balloons should be and then I fill in the dialogue. It is an interesting way of working.

The Future

RUDNICK:
^[258] So with all these other projects, is acting still the thing you want to do most?

TREBOR:
^[259] Oh yes. Acting is the motor that has led me to these other things like directing and writing. In the comic book I get to think "As Salmoneus, how can I get myself to be surrounded by beautiful women" and then have it come true! So it's the actor in me that is the generator for every other part of my talent, I believe.

RUDNICK:
^[260] Now is there anything else coming up for you project-wise that you're excited about?

TREBOR:
^[261] I just had a really good meeting with the Vice President of talent for CBS. I'll just say that much. We're discussing some things. This is a friend and we've known each other for 12 years. He was an assistant casting director back then. We're both in high positions now. You make relationships with people early on and when you run into them again things can work out for all of you. He just loves my action figure.

^[262] I am trying to corner the market on my Salmoneus action figure to give to producers and directors and casting people because they're so tickled by it. My figure actually looks kind of like me. So I had a real nice meeting with him yesterday and we're discussing seriously some projects that CBS is doing. But I don't want to go any further.

RUDNICK:
^[263] Hey, that's great, and best of luck to you!

TREBOR:
^[264] Thank you. I also hope to be directing for Hercules or Xena again. I know the producers liked my work a lot and Kevin really enjoyed working with me. It was a darker episode. I was able to coach him and he trusted me, because he knows I'm a fellow actor. He gave a more vulnerable, richer performance. One person on the Internet said "I'm not a softie. I was raised you don't cry because it's weak. But during the last half of A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE (#H58) I bawled my eyes out." She really praised Kevin Sorbo, and didn't mention my name once. But that was just fine. As a director, I don't need to get praise directly. But if they love the show and love the acting, that makes me feel so good. Kevin was very pleased with the review from that lady. So I think he'd like to work with me again.

^[265] I would love directing Lucy and Renee, I think they trust me as well as an actor. Actor to actor, as long as you can keep the camera moving and have a good visual design, they will trust you more if the part requires it. So often, and this can be on the record, a director will look at Kevin or Lucy and say "Well, they're the star of the show, they're very good, and they know what they're doing." The director will do a scene and say "That's good, let's move on." But I know what these guys can really do. I know what Lucy and Renee and Kevin are really capable of. I don't have a lot of time, but after the first take I can whisper something in their ear and say "You got that?" The way a good director like Oliver Stone or John Frankenheimer would do.

^[266] Some directors just aren't familiar with an actor's jargon or mindset. With Kevin and Lindsey Ginter in A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE (#H58) we did acting exercises. Kevin was very generous and gave me four hours of his time on Sunday. We were there with no cameramen, no crew, just us. I did an improv with them. I said "You are a lie detector, Kevin. You aren't just the operator, you are the lie detector. I want you to ask this guy questions about the murder. Ask him 'What is your name. What color are your eyes. Did you do kill those people?' Look very closely into his eyes to read those answers." I told Kevin I was going to be reading the polygraph in his eyes. He really responded to that. I don't know if another director would have given that kind of advice or suggestion. It comes from an actor's point of view.

^[267] I'd like the chance to do that with Lucy and Renee as well. I've always known I could get better performances out of people, and now I've had the chance to demonstrate that, to myself at least. Also, I won't pretend to know more than I do, and will always ask questions of people, actors and crew alike, to see if I can get what I want out of a scene. And the love we all had on the set for the project made that possible.

RUDNICK:
^[268] It shows in the final product, too.

TREBOR:
^[269] Thank you.

RUDNICK:
^[270] As you watch these episodes and look for these kinds of things, you can tell which people were really pushing and which were just going through the motions. After awhile, for those who keep coming back, you get a sense for their work. When I see the opening credits for an episode and see a certain director or writer I'll get very excited because I'll be familiar enough with the work to have an expectation of what's ahead.

TREBOR:
^[271] Speaking of writers, I have to give a lot of credit to the writers of A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE (#H68). They gave me an excellent script to start with. I was infected by it in a good way. It went right to my bones and got me very involved. How do we face death? Where is the line between bravado and vulnerability? There was a lot of rich, emotional texture in the script to begin with. I was grateful that was the script they gave me to direct. I think I helped them prove it as well. I'd like the chance to do something similar on the Xena side.

^[272] Steve Sears said there's a script coming up for Xena that's very similar in tone. It's supposed to be very intense but not spectacular. I'm hoping to make a pitch to direct that. I'd also love to direct comedy. I thought that's what they'd have me do first since they know me as Salmoneus. I know how to build a comedic rhythm such that it's not obvious people are trying to be funny. Comedy is actually more serious than drama in that respect. But I'm also talking with other shows. Buffy The Vampire Slayer (1997-) for one, which has many of our directors on it.

^[273] Right now their grid is pretty much filled, but I'm kind of on "stand-by" in case someone drops out. I'm not switching careers, but I do want to do more directing as well. I learn so much from each, and they feed on each other.

RUDNICK:
^[274] Well, I'm sure I've taken up more than enough of your time by now.

TREBOR:
^[275] [laughs] It has been a pleasure.

RUDNICK:
^[276] Thank you very, very much for your time, and I know I speak for many when I say I hope to see more of Salmoneus on Hercules and Xena soon.

TREBOR:
^[277] You are very welcome. It has been fun.

Biography

Bret Ryan Rudnick
WHOOSH! Token Guy Who Lifts the Heavy Stuff
IAXS Executive Committee
"You can't be too rich or have too many Amazons."
When he's not working for a big Science/Engineering company that (amongst other things) designs, builds, launches, and operates exploratory spacecraft, Bret writes fantasy novels and short stories. Bret is a man of many skills, having also previously been an Olympic-qualified archer, a drummer in the Butch Grinder Band, a news reader for Public Television Station KVCR, and a Deputy Sheriff for the County of San Bernardino, California. He also collects Japanese swords, armour , and art. He and his dog hunt down stray Bacchae in New England.
Favorite XWP episode: HOOVES AND HARLOTS (#10), WARRIOR... PRINCESS... TRAMP (#30), and THE QUEST (#37)
Favorite XWP line: Xena: "What's this?" Gabrielle: "I'm... an amazon princess?" Xena (rolls eyes): "Great." HOOVES AND HARLOTS (#10); Xena after being goosed by Joxer : "Are you suicidal?" WARRIOR...PRINCESS...TRAMP (#30); Joxer: "Ha. Ha." A COMEDY OF EROS (#46); Autolycus: "I'm not just leering at scantily clad women, you know, I'm working!" THE QUEST (#37)
First episode seen: CRADLE OF HOPE (#04)
Least favorite episode: GIANT KILLER (#27)