Developing Xena
Callisto
Callisto as the Opposite of Gabrielle
Post-Accident Production
Joxer
The Third Season
Will The Real RJ Stewart Stand Up
Background
Subtext
Callisto, Part 3
Hudson Leick
Ares
Shortened Seasons

Developing Xena

Xena and Gabrielle from the old (black-and-white) days

BRET RUDNICK:
[01] So, tell me, you are actually one of the two people who created the show? Is this correct?

R. J. STEWART:
[02] I wrote the pilot. The character was created on HERCULES: THE LEGENDARY JOURNEYS. John Schulian wrote the character, Xena, for HERCULES. Rob Tapert [creator and executive producer of XENA: WARRIOR PRINCESS] wrote a bible for the series and the story for the first Xena episode. They sent me the episodes of HERCULES that Xena had appeared in. I was brought in and asked to write the pilot, create the character of Gabrielle and the relationship, and basically make a good Xena because she had been a bad girl on HERCULES. So yes, I was one of the creators, but you have got to give Schulian credit for making up the character and Rob for selling the series idea to Universal. Rob also created many of the elements that make Xena special.

RUDNICK:
[03] I have noticed that since the Xena character first debuted on HERCULES that her character has changed a bit to accommodate whatever plan you have for her.

STEWART:
[04] In writing the pilot I really could not be too faithful to the HERCULES Xena because we had to make a good series of her own. It was not really a matter of supporting her character from HERCULES, but rather what character we could make up inspired by the HERCULES trilogy that could sustain a series. The whole key to a series is to find the characters that can generate more episodes. So, it is very important that you make decisions when writing a pilot in that regard, and certainly any kind of slavish obedience to what went on in the HERCULES arc would be non-productive.

Callisto

RUDNICK:
[05] I also have to say, just for myself, personally in following the show, you have written some of the most intense and thought-provoking episodes of the series.

STEWART:
[06] Well, thank you, I am glad to hear that.

RUDNICK:
[07] I was re-watching CALLISTO (#22) for example --

STEWART:
[08] That one -- that is probably my favorite so far.

RUDNICK:
[09] I think it is probably safe to say, that apart from Xena and Gabrielle, most people get into discussions about Callisto.

STEWART:
[10] Well, do you know how that came about? I was driving to work one day and thought "Boy, Xena got off awful easy, didn't she?" We stated as her backstory that she was this terrible looter and burner and pillager, and then one day she decided to go good, and that was it -- she got away with it. There has got to be somebody out there whose life she ruined. What does that person think? I decided to make her a female villain because we had not done that yet.

[11] Exploring that character [Callisto] was very interesting. I was writing and I was very conscious of exploring something ripe and interesting. I am delighted -- I cannot tell you how satisfying it is as a writer to know that people got that so completely. What you are telling me now is good to hear. People I talk to on the street and at parties, tell me similar things.

Callisto as the Opposite of Gabrielle

Xena in the body of Callisto with Gabrielle and Joxer
in INTIMATE STRANGER (#31)

RUDNICK:
[12] One of the things that generates a lot of discussion when people are talking about and comparing Callisto and Xena is that, as you have mentioned, Xena has changed her ways, she has turned good, and she really has not, in many ways, been brought to account for the things that she did when she was not good. On the other hand, Callisto has in many ways, and people discuss those differences.

STEWART:
[13] I know some fans actually sympathise with Hudson [Leick]'s character, Callisto, and see her as being right. I would not go that far, because there are some lines I have put into Xena's mouth on several occasions trying to suggest "if you do good now, you are good". That is a very existential thing. What you do at the moment defines who you are. So I think Xena now is trying to be good, and to the extent she succeeds in being good, then she is good. And Callisto, even though we can understand and even sympathise with why she is the way she is, by performing evil acts, she is evil.

[14] There's another theme that runs throughout the entire series. It's very Schopenhauerian. It is simply this: That the world is condemned to exist in a cycle of pain and violence until somebody breaks it. Gabrielle hopes and aspires to break it. We will be dealing with that very heavily in the beginning of next season. Callisto is clearly the opposite of Gabrielle. She was dealt this harsh, horrible blow early in her life. And she just became a part of it. That tidal wave of violence and hate swept her up and has become the driving influence in her life. Gabrielle's husband was murdered and she chose not to allow herself to be swept up in the same way.

RUDNICK:
[15] Even though Gabrielle felt very intensely about Perdicus being murdered, you could see there was a point there when she was in the cave with the napping Callisto that you just really were not sure which way she was going to go (RETURN OF CALLISTO #29).

STEWART:
[16] Right. That is the way I wrote it but you have got to give a lot of credit to Renee O'Connor. She was brilliant in that scene. You know, all of the writers here are able to be as ambitious as we are because we have those three great actresses -- Hudson [Leick], Lucy [Lawless], and Renee [O'Connor]. We are really very, very fortunate to have them.

RUDNICK:
[17] It has been very interesting, too, over the course of the seasons to see the change and the depth the actresses and the stories have brought to the characters. We have seen them in humorous situations, we have seen them in intense situations, and one sort of grows with them as a viewer, as you watch the series, and that is not something you find in many shows.

STEWART:
[18] Well, that is great to hear. I really appreciate you saying that. It is really very gratifying to hear.

Post-Accident Production

RUDNICK:
[19] Speaking of those three actresses, another thing that was brought to mind was I can only imagine how production must have been affected by Lucy Lawless's injury. Things must have been very chaotic at that point. How did you react to and handle that situation?

STEWART:
[20] Personally, I was devastated for Lucy, because I love her. She is a wonderful human being and to see her in the hospital in pain like that really set me for a loop. Rob [Tapert], who is the boss of bosses here, and much closer to Lucy than I am -- Rob is her boyfriend -- he was able to keep a very level head about it and, while very concerned about Lucy, of course, was able to supply excellent leadership in those first twenty-four hours. He got us all sitting down in front of the board looking at how to correct the problem. I have got to give credit to everybody who was there. We all just jumped in and solved the problem. Steve Sears in particular shined during that period.

[21] The key was to find a way to stay in production. We had a script, TEN LITTLE WARLORDS (#32), that coincidentally tied into an already existing episode in which Xena and Callisto switched bodies (INTIMATE STRANGER #31). So the suggestion was made to leave Xena in Callisto's body. We had that solved within twenty-four hours after the accident. So then we said "Hey, that's a good idea. What other episodes do we have existing that can build a ramp for us?" Then we realized we had one where she dies at the end (DESTINY #36). But in the original version of that we brought her back to life, through the woman M'Lila [pronounced Mah-LEE-Lah], the woman in the ethereal place.

RUDNICK:
[22] Were there any shows that were already filmed that had to be re-filmed?

STEWART:
[23] We did not have to re-shoot them, we just opened up the endings of them and cut them differently. Most of the credit for that has to go to the post production people, Bernie Joyce and her crew. They are the ones that had to go back and redo it. So then someone said, "What if we do ALL OF ME?" Xena's dead, we leave her dead, we say "to be continued" and then we go into ALL OF ME -- you remember the movie ALL OF ME? [ALL OF ME, Universal Studios, Carl Reiner, Director (1984). With Steve Martin, Lily Tomlin, and Victoria Tennant]

RUDNICK:
[24] Yes, sure do.

STEWART:
[25] The film with Steve Martin and Lily Tomlin. That is what we were ripping off when we did Xena going into Autolycus' body (THE QUEST #37). Now the interesting thing in that episode, the three of us, Chris [Manheim, XWP writer], Steve [Sears, XWP supervising producer and writer] and I banged out a draft because we had to do it quickly. I read through it and it was very funny but I was disturbed by the fact that Xena was dead in the teaser and we made a comedy out of it. Chris and I had to rush off to do other things, so Steve took it to refine it. His task, which he responded to brilliantly, was to give it tenderness and an emotional level too. We really dodged a lot of bullets. Of course, we would have been dead in the water if we did not have Rene O'Connor to carry the shows for us while Lucy was gone. She is gold.

[26] The other one was the Joxer, kind of silly, episode, FOR HIM THE BELL TOLLS (#40). It was the other one we made to cover Lucy's absence. I thought it turned out pretty good.

Joxer

Joxer defending Argo from whom he thought was Callisto
in INTIMATE STRANGER (#31)

RUDNICK:
[27] Many people have enjoyed that, and I have noticed too that fairly early on in season many the fans out there were heavily bashing Joxer for whatever reason -- that he was taking screen time from Xena and Gabrielle, for example -- but I have noticed a perceptible shift, I think, a little more in that character's favor over time.

STEWART:
[28] I agree. When does the show air where you are?

RUDNICK:
[29] It airs on Saturday nights.

STEWART:
[30] Not this Saturday but the following Saturday you will see a show where I think Joxer really comes into his own. It is written by Chris Mannheim who has done some of our best episodes.

RUDNICK:
[31] This is the one people have been talking about -- A COMEDY OF EROS (#46)?

STEWART:
[32] Yes, correct. It amazes me, you guys know so much about those episodes before they air.

RUDNICK:
[33] Well, not much gets by the fans out there.

STEWART:
[laughs]

Third Season

RUDNICK:
[34] And this leads into another topic, in the computer age we are in today, the Internet is a very immediate form of communication which is a two-edged sword. You have got the immediacy to get something out there but also speculation or just out and out disinformation can run rampant sometimes.

STEWART:
[35] Yes. You know, I have finally got online at home. I have done some surfing and I go basically to what my interests are. I have seen a lot of XENA stuff. I like philosophy so I have seen a few philosophical things, anything to do with Schopenhauer. I like dogs so I have looked up some things about different breeds. And I love baseball. I try not to read too much XENA stuff because I do not want to become self-conscious about the experience. Next season's going to be a real roller coaster for you die hard fans.

RUDNICK:
[36] Can you tell us anything, even in generalities, that you would care to share about that?

STEWART:
[pauses, deep in thought] [37] OK, let me see as I shuffle through my thoughts. What can I say that is tantalizing but obscure? The theme I just spoke of, Gabrielle's choice not to continue the cycle of violence, will receive a very serious exploration in a three-episode arc. Gabrielle will be tested, perhaps even beyond her ability, to resist becoming a part of that cycle. It will be a really visceral ride for Gabrielle.

RUDNICK:
[38] Is this something that is going to happen early in the season?

STEWART:
[pauses] [39] Yeeeeeees. As a matter of fact, one of the key episodes is a Halloween episode. That is all I think I want to say about that. A lot of it is built on surprises.

Will The Real RJ Stewart Stand Up

RUDNICK:
[40] Sort of a side topic, I notice there is an author of many fantasy books that is named R. J. Stewart -- are you the same?

STEWART:
[41] No, no. I am not related to him at all. He does books I like, on Celtic mythology, but no. Although -- here is another hint -- we did have reason to buy one of his books in research for the new season. His books are very interesting, actually very well researched.

Background

RUDNICK:
[42] Apart from XENA, what other things have you done?

STEWART:
[43] I worked on a show called REMMINGTON STEELE (1982-87) in the 1980's. I went through a long period of what we call in the business, feature development Hell, which means you write a feature script, it gets a lot of excitement behind it, and then it does not get made. I toiled there for a while. I did a show for Warner Brothers called THE GREAT DEFENDER (1995), a critically acclaimed flop. Then I wrote MAJOR LEAGUE 2 (1994), the sequel to MAJOR LEAGUE (1989). And I created a series with Jim Garner called MAN OF THE PEOPLE (1991 - [had Kate Mulgrew in it, you trivia hounds!]), which was another unsuccessful series.

RUDNICK:
[44] Do you have anything in the works now that is different or that you might want to see done?

STEWART:
[45] Rob Tapert, Liz Freidman and I are talking about a couple of projects. I would rather not go too much into it right now. But it is in the same genre we are talking about here.

RUDNICK:
[46] As far as television goes, do you get to watch many other programs yourself, and if so, what do you like?

STEWART:
[47] My tastes are mainstream. I like SEINFELD. I watch the reruns a lot and try to catch the first-run shows. MAD ABOUT YOU, I like -- mostly half-hour comedies. Some classic television shows I watch in reruns. I still like WILD, WILD WEST (1965-1970).

U.S. Secret Service Agent James West looks on as Dr. Miguelito Loveless demands the government return most of California to his family, who owned it under Spanish rule in THE WILD, WILD WEST

RUDNICK:
[48] Oh, you will love this then -- I am not saying this just because I did it, but in one of the early issues of WHOOSH! [#04, January 1997, "Callisto: Arch-Villain Extraordinaire"] I did an article about Callisto and how much I loved Callisto as a villain and I compared Callisto to Dr. Loveless from WILD, WILD WEST.

STEWART:
[49] All *right*. [laughs] You know, what I love about XENA is that it really gives me a chance to write. I give Rob a lot of credit that he lets us write. Many producers would be afraid or want to stick to a certain formula, but he lets us take a lot of chances. Rob is a real adventurer. And conceptually, he is a constant source of brilliant, adventurous ideas. I feel more like a writer here than any other place I have ever been, because Rob really lets us *write*. And they make great things out of it down in New Zealand. The production crew is wonderful. Eric Gruendemann [XWP producer] does a great job and we have got these terrific actresses. It is like I died and went to the Elysian Fields. And I have not even mentioned Liz Freidman who is such a valuable part of this show on every level, from story to production and post. She is also a delight to work with.

RUDNICK:
[50] I do watch HERCULES as well, but when it comes to more intellectually satisfying type fare, XENA is definitely closer to that mark.

STEWART:
[51] You know, I had sort of given up the idea that I would ever be able to write stuff that really was satisfying. I thought "Well, you know, I am making a living, but I don't think I am ever gonna get a shot at real writing." And suddenly I get to do it every week. It is just very satisfying. I am so delighted to hear that people out there get what we are doing.

RUDNICK:
[52] Any particular episodes come to mind?

STEWART:
[53] Some of my favorites are the comedies. I had a lot of praise over a show called A DAY IN THE LIFE (#39), which is a very atypical XENA, obviously. [laughs]

Subtext

RUDNICK:
[54] Well, that brings up another topic, especially with a show like A DAY IN THE LIFE -- there is a very heavy element of fandom that sees the relationship between Xena and Gabrielle as something more than just good friends. Then there are those who think no, they are *just* good friends. So when you have an episode like A DAY IN THE LIFE, that creates a very hot topic of discussion for both sides.

STEWART:
[55] I have some general statements to say about that. Obviously, they [Xena and Gabrielle] like men. That is an obvious thing if you watch the series. That they would be in an exclusively gay relationship is pretty far-fetched given the data we have given about the characters. They have a passionate love for each other, but a passionate love does not *necessarily* mean sexual love. And that's all I will say.

[56] As writers, we spend very little time talking about that. It is not that it is not important. Every human being has a sex drive that they need to deal with, but there are other issues we are addressing as well. It is an interesting discussion -- we feed it. There is no doubt we feed it to a certain extent. But it is really a relatively minor thing in our talks about the series. Certainly that so many gay people have found it to be a series they relate to strongly -- we love that, that is something we celebrate. Let me put it this way, there is not going to be an ELLEN episode because we do not feel we need to make a comment on it.

RUDNICK:
[57] As I have heard many people mention when discussing the subtext, it has been said there is enough there such that if you want to see that you can, and if not, you do not have to.

STEWART:
[58] And that is the way it will continue to be. There will be a lot of subtext they can get into, but it has been clear and will continue to be clear that both characters are attracted to men. Beyond that, everything is mysterious.

Callisto, Part 3

A pre-goddess yet post-immortal Callisto checking out Gabrielle while Xena is otherwise occupied
in A NECESSARY EVIL (#38)

RUDNICK:
[59] Are we likely to see Callisto next season?

STEWART:
[60] Oh, yes! I love doing that character. Hudson, she's a beautiful person, and a joy to work with. We will see her again. There is a limit as to how much we can use her because we will run into self-parody if we constantly bring her out. But there is one crucial episode she is in next year -- an absolute pivotal episode in the series, and there is another one where she is used in a more bizarre lighter way, a very unique way. You will be surprised. So those two for sure.

[61] If we cannot think of other ways to get her in without looking strained -- we have killed her -- the fact we have been able to figure out how to use her so many times after she is dead has been pretty clever so far. [laughs] Eventually, we will have to watch out.

RUDNICK:
[62] Disbelief can only be suspended so far.

STEWART:
[laughs]
[63] Yeah! Look, speaking honestly, as long as she is great for ratings, we will probably keep bringing her back. Actually, what might stop us from using her is Hudson's other career opportunities. She is a hot actress now.

[64] If you follow the progression of her character, you can see some of the problems in constantly bringing her back. In CALLISTO (#22), Xena is haunted by guilt by her having created this character. She chooses to imprison her and hopefully that will take care of the problem. In RETURN OF CALLISTO (#29), Callisto gets out and kills Gabrielle's husband. Xena really has to waste the b***h. So she lets her go into the quicksand. You really could not keep her alive any further. If Xena had let her live, then we really would be in BATMAN territory where Batman is always locking these guys up and they are always getting out of jail and coming back. Then we did the body switch one, which was fun (INTIMATE STRANGER #31). Then we did TEN LITTLE WARLORDS (#32), where Hudson played Xena. Then we did her coming back with the other goddess, Velasca -- what was that one?

RUDNICK:
[65] A NECESSARY EVIL (#38).

STEWART:
[66] Yes, that was a good one.

RUDNICK:
[67] I have to say, not only did I enjoy A NECESSARY EVIL because Callisto was in it, but because the Amazons were in it as well and I find those characters and that society fascinating.

STEWART:
[68] Yes, well, one of the series Rob, Liz and I are trying to sell has a lot to do with Amazons. Hopefully we will sell it. You will have so much Amazons. You saw the HERCULES episode with Callisto (SURPRISE #H49)?

RUDNICK:
[69] Yes, indeed.

Hudson Leick

STEWART:
[70] I think she [Hudson Leick] may be doing another crossover too [in HERCULES: THE LEGENDARY JOURNEYS], but certainly she will be in at least two of our episodes next year. Have you followed her career at all?

RUDNICK:
[71] A little -- I knew she had been in MELROSE PLACE and some other things, but the first time I saw her was in XENA.

STEWART:
[72] The first time I saw her was when she auditioned for us. And she was good. The casting director, Beth Hymsen, did a great job bringing in actresses for that part. She got about ten women in and eight of them could have done it. But you know when Hudson [Leick] came in, sat down, and started reading, there was no doubt. [laughs] When she was done Rob says, "That's her!"

RUDNICK:
[73] I have noticed too in TEN LITTLE WARLORDS when Hudson Leick was playing Xena, her actions, her movements -- it seemed she took time to study Lucy Lawless.

STEWART:
[74] Yes, she is a real actress. Let me tell you a sidebar story about Hudson the person. We went to Disneyland once, the whole bunch of us, from both shows. Lucy was there and Hudson was there and my wife and I had our grandchildren with us. Hudson took them on the "It's a Small World" ride and they really loved her. She is a terrific person.

Ares

Ares, sans godhood, down and out in Ancient Greece
in TEN LITTLE WARLORDS (#32)

RUDNICK:
[75] Another character that has matured over time is Ares and Ares' relationship with Xena. That is another topic that gets a lot of discussion as well, whether Ares is Xena's father, or whether he is more of a companion.

STEWART:
[devilishly]
[76] Well, stay tuned. The first episode next year -- watch it very carefully (THE FURIES #47). That is all I will say. It is actually one of my favorite episodes, the one coming up. I like quite a few of them, but I really enjoyed writing this one. The first episode of next season is called THE FURIES. Lucy gives a remarkable performance in that one. A syndicated show has never received an emmy as far as I know, but Lucy deserves one for the consistently inspired and imaginative perfomances she gives every week.

Shortened Seasons

RUDNICK:
[77] I noticed we got 24 episodes the first season, and 24 were filmed in Season 2, but only 22 were aired.

STEWART:
[78] I know, they are diminishing. There will be 22 in Season 3. If it lasts long enough, you will owe us an episode. I do not know why. I haven't a clue. It is some accountant's brilliant idea.

RUDNICK:
[79] Are we likely to get a fourth season or is it too soon to tell?

STEWART:
[80] Oh, yes, I would say very likely. Contracts are being signed. Money is being spent. You can count on it. Of course it is up to you guys to keep watching, though!

RUDNICK:
[81] Not much to worry about there. Well, I know you must want to get back to work. Thanks very much for your time.

STEWART:
[82] My pleasure.